Ranking The Greatest Forwards of All Time

Gretzky and Then Who Else?

The greatest players of all time are a common topic of debate among friends and family when going out to watch a game at the pub. Dad and I often have this discussion, and we often go back and forth about the merits of different players, but without definitively ranking the players, it’s easy to place 7 players in your top 5, or 13 in your top 10. So, Dad and I decided to each put together a list of who we consider the top 10 forwards of all time. We’ll do this with defencemen and goalies too, before wrapping up with an overall ranking.

In doing this exercise, we ended up with a definitive top 7 that showed up on both of our lists. However, we each had three players the other didn’t, who we’ll discuss as honorable mentions.

1. Wayne Gretzky

Alex: I don’t think there’s a less debated GOAT in a sport than Wayne Gretzky. He dominated the game like no one ever has. You can argue that McDavid is the most talented player ever, or Ovechkin is the best goal scorer, or Henri Richard is the greatest winner, but when it comes to overall greatness it’s hard to argue against Gretzky.

Phil: It’s hard to dispute this one. The only players I’ve heard mentioned in the same breath are Howe and Lemieux and neither stands up to the Great One in my books.

2. Mario Lemieux

Alex: There might not be anyone with more question marks surrounding their career than Lemieux. His health limited him from even playing 1000 games, but we still agree he’s the second-greatest forward of all time. Why do you think that is? Why don’t we consider some of the other players on our lists greater based on longevity alone?

Phil: I was tempted to place Howe at #2 but in the end, if it wasn’t for Gretzky I think Lemieux would have been in a class of his own.

3. Gordie Howe

Phil: Yes, he played in a different era, but he combined longevity, scoring, and toughness in one package. Do any other players have a box score entry named after them? Fighting may be on the way out but until it’s gone, a Gordie Howe Hat Trick (a goal, an assist, and a fight) is a rare and difficult accomplishment.

Alex: Listen, I know to some it may be blasphemous to rank Howe 5th, but to me what Crosby and Ovechkin have done throughout their careers is more impressive. Howe never scored 50 goals and only reached the 100-point plateau once. Howe played in a low-scoring era but so did Crosby and Ovechkin, and they played against tougher competition. Also for as much is made of the Gordie Howe Hat Trick, he only actually accomplished the feat twice in his career.

4. Sidney Crosby

Alex: To me, Crosby is the third-greatest forward of all time. He put up stellar numbers in the middle of the dead puck era, and he won everywhere he went. There’s something to be said about winning three Stanley Cups in the salary cap era; the hardest era to win. He also has the individual hardware to back it up with 2 Hart’s, 2 Art Ross’s, 3 Lindsay’s, and 2 Rocket’s. He’s currently 15th all-time in points with a realistic chance to reach as high as 2nd. All of this while missing a good chunk of his prime to concussions is incredibly impressive. What makes you rank him below some other players?

Phil: There’s no doubt that he’s a great player but I have trouble putting players who haven’t finished playing on the '‘Greatest of All Time” list. He’s in the top 10 for PPG and APG but he’s not even in the top 40 for GPG. And remember, his PG stats will likely start to fall as he gets older. I’ve never bought into the argument that the number of Cups a player has somehow weighs one way or the other. Gretzky won 4 Cups with the Oilers but they still managed to win another without him so you can hardly put the wins solely on his shoulders. In the end, he and Ovechkin were the dominant players of their era (at least until McDavid arrived) so given that (and the 2010 Golden Goal) I’m including him on my list. If he passes Howe, which is possible, I’ll consider bumping him up.

Alex: I’ll admit there’s some projection involved the active players on my list, but Crosby should still be higher on your list. If you want to rank Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, and McDavid above him, I won’t argue, but Messier and Esposito? They weren’t even the best players on their teams at their peak, let alone the best players of their eras. And while I don’t think Cups are the most important thing, playoff performance certainly matters, and Crosby is one of the greatest big game players of all time.

5. Phil Esposito

Phil: I think his achievements speak for themselves:

• Led Team Canada during the 1972 Summit Series.

• Thirteen consecutive 30+ goal seasons, second most in history.

• His 76 goals during the 70-71 season broke Bobby Hull’s record by 18 and stood until Gretzky broke it in 81-82 and stands as the 6th most of all time.

• Only Gretzky, Lemieux, McDavid, and Yzerman have scored more in a single season.

Alex: The only knock against Esposito is he was the second-best player on his team for a good portion of his career. He was a great player and one of the greatest goal scorers ever.

6. Connor McDavid

Phil: Yes, I said I have a hard time putting active players on this list and he is still early in his career so you never know what can happen. That said, only Gretzky, Lemieux, and Yzerman have scored more in a single season and when he’s on the ice he makes all the other players look like pylons. The only reason he isn’t higher is that he hasn’t played long enough.

Alex: McDavid is the most dominant player I’ve ever seen, and undeniably is the most talented player we’ve ever seen. In terms of greatness, I could see him challenging Gretzky in the GOAT conversation, and I don’t see him landing any lower than second by the time his career’s over. That being said, he needs to play longer before I’ll rank him above some players who proved their dominance over several decades.

7. Alex Ovechkin

Alex: While Ovechkin has certainly tailed off this year (putting the goal record chase in jeopardy), in my eyes he’s already the greatest goal-scorer of all time. He’s led the league in goals 9 times. No other player has done it more than 7 times (Bobby Hull), and since the NHL expanded to at least 20 teams in 1979, no other player has done it more than 5 times (Wayne Gretzky). Goal scoring is the most important skill a player can have, and that’s why I place him 4th all-time.

Phil: Look, I put him on my list but he’s way down there at 9th. There’s no doubt he’s a great goal scorer, but I’ve always seen them as somewhat of a one-trick pony. Some of his less impressive stats:

• 34th in PPG

• 16th in total points

• His 65 goals in 07-08 is impressive but it’s only the 24th most of all time and 10 players have scored more in a season (including Lanny McDonald. Lanny McDonald!)

• The most points he’s ever scored in a season is 112 (07-08), the 128th most all time.

• His 0.60 GPG puts him behind Bossy, Lemieux, Bure, and Matthews and only slightly ahead of Bobby and Brett Hull. This number is likely to decline as he tries to keep playing long enough to break Gretzky’s record.

I could go on but I’m starting to feel like removing him from the list entirely. There’s no doubt he was one of the best players of his era, but he owes much of his “greatness” to young fans who’ve only been watching the game for a few decades and the efforts the league made to promote the Crosby vs. Ovechkin rivalry. My prediction is that, as time passes, he will fall out of the all-time list of all but his most loyal fans. For my money, I’d take Gretzky, Bobby Hull, or Bossy over Ovechkin if I wanted a goal scorer.

Alex: Calling Ovechkin a one-trick pony is one of the biggest displays of recency bias I’ve ever seen. Yes, he’s just a trigger man now that he’s 38, but that wasn’t the case for the majority of his career, and he’s become a better passer as he’s aged. He’s also played in the lowest-scoring era in NHL history. You can’t tell me that Lanny McDonald scoring 66 goals in 1983 is as impressive as Ovechkin putting up 65 in 2008. In fact, based on adjusted goals, it ranks as the second-greatest goal-scoring season of all time.

I also think it’s disingenuous to include point-per-game and goal-per-game paces over an entire career since most players play vastly different amounts of time. I’m sure Lemieux, Bossy, and Orr would be much lower on the all-time list if they played until they were 40, and Matthews’ pace will only get lower as he ages too. If you want to take Gretzky over Ovechkin as a goal scorer I’ll disagree but won’t argue, but no one else has had the sustained goal-scoring dominance as Ovechkin.

Alex Honourable Mention 1: Jaromir Jagr

Alex: I’ll admit, the biggest shocker to me when I saw your list was that it was missing Jagr. He’s second all-time in points, leading the league in that category 5 times. He also ranks 4th all-time in goals. I think you also need to give him credit for his longevity. He produced at a relatively high level well into his mid-40s. His dominance at his peak and longevity are what give him a spot on my list. The only issue I have that keeps me from ranking him higher is he wasn’t the guy when he won his Cups. He played behind Mario Lemieux. What was the reason for you not including Jagr?

Phil: This is a tough one, but you mentioned the main reason, he had Lemieux. There’s no doubt he played a long time (gambling debts and unpaid taxes?) and scored a lot of points, but his 1.11 PPG is only 30th all-time. He did play 4 years in Europe so if he’d stayed in the NHL his point total would be higher (still less than Gretzky) but he was scoring well below a PPG at that time so his career PPG would be lower. His main claim to fame is being #2 in career points but that’s largely due to longevity and while the same might be said about Howe, Jagr had Lemieux, Howe had Sid Abel and Ted Lindsay and played during a lower scoring period. When discussing great players, Jagr belongs with Trottier, Lafleur, Nicholls, and Bure. Great players but not in the list of Top 10 all-time.

Alex: That’s a fair argument. My only question is what makes you pick Messier over him? Jagr has higher totals, won more awards, and had a better peak.

Alex Honourable Mention 2: Mike Bossy

Alex: If there’s a player that has more questions about his career than Lemieux, it’s Bossy. He scored at least 50 goals in each of his first 9 seasons, tying the record for the most 50+ goal seasons with Gretzky and Ovechkin. However, in his 10th season he only scored 38 and then retired. If he remained healthy, there’s a very real possibility that Ovechkin would be chasing Bossy, not Gretzky right now. So, I thought he was worthy of inclusion.

Phil: This one is even tougher than Jagr. Bossy is #4 in PPG and #1 in GPG. The problem is that he only played 752 games, so his point total puts him in 63rd. If a back injury hadn’t forced him to retire at 30 it is possible that he’d be mentioned alongside Gretzky and Lemieux. But “possible” isn’t “actual” and so I reluctantly left him out of the top 10.

Alex Honourable Mention 3: Steve Yzerman

Alex Note: I’ll admit, Yzerman might be the biggest off-the-board pick on either of our lists. He was obviously a great player, but I don’t think he’s immediately who you think of when you think of the 10 best forwards ever. However, when you look closely, you’ll see that he’s the best defensive forward among the all-time greats (the only player on either of our lists to win the Selke). He also has the highest-scoring season ever (155 points) among players not named Gretzky or Lemieux. Those peaks along with excellent career totals make him a worthy inclusion.

Phil: I’ll keep this one short. He has some great stats, and I think he’s a great player, but when your claim to fame is you were the third-best player of your era (and he arguably is) you’re not in the top 10 all time.

Dad Honourable Mention 1: Mark Messier

Phil: This one might be my equivalent to your Stevie Y pick or Jagr pick. His career stats are great, #3 overall in assists and points, 9th in goals but his per game stats aren’t as stellar ranking, 38th, 34th, and 258th respectively. Besides his career stats I largely included him for his reputation as “The Captain,” a player considered to be one, if not the greatest team captain of all time.

Alex: There’s no denying Messier had some impressive stat totals, but when you look at his resume, it’s more fraudulent than anyone else either of us mentioned on our list. He won two Hart Trophies. In one season he was 2nd in scoring and 13 points behind Gretzky. The other he was 7th in scoring, 24 behind Lemieux. He also only won one Conn Smythe, which when you consider he won 6 Cups is actually a huge mark against him. It’s even less impressive when you consider he didn’t get his Conn Smythe either time he was without Gretzky. Instead, the voters chose to vote for Messier over Gretzky despite Gretzky having 9 more points. The legend of “The Captain” gives him too much credit when he didn’t even win the MVP for that run.

Dad Honourable Mention 2: Bobby Hull

Phil: Bobby Hull sits at 31st from a PPG status and in 10th for GPG. Not great stats I admit, however the WHA “stole” him from the NHL when he was 33 (for a five-year, one-million-dollar contract with a one million dollar signing bonus, a ridiculous amount of money at the time). During his 8 years in the WHA he played in 411 WHA games, scoring 303 goals, 335 assists, and 638 points, adding 43 goals and 37 assists in 60 playoff games. If you add those stats onto his NHL stats he’d have 913 goals, 895 assists, and 1808 points putting him in 1st, 21st, and 5th respectively. Although 4 of the 12 WHA teams eventually joined the NHL, it would not be “fair” to consider his points in that league as equal to his NHL points. However, given that he played for 10 more years, including 2 more in the NHL, there is little doubt that had he stayed in the NHL for his entire career he’d be much higher in the overall rankings.

Alex: I don’t really have an issue with you including Hull. He was a great player, and I considered him for my list, but ultimately I didn’t include him because he didn’t win enough. I won’t hold it against McDavid if he never wins a Cup when there are 32 teams in the league. However, Hull played most of his NHL career when there were 6 teams and he only won once. That says something about how effective he was in my opinion.

Dad Honourable Mention 3: Maurice Richard

Phil: He won the Stanley Cup eight times, was a 14-time All-Star, he held close to 20 National Hockey League records when he retired, including the title for most goals scored. His 50 goals during the 1944-45 season stood as a league record for 16 years and he was the only player to do so in 50 games until Bossy repeated the 1980-81. There’s a reason the top goal scorer in the league gets the Rocket Richard Trophy.

Alex: Yes he won eight Cups, but it was in the Original Six era. He’s also the only player mentioned on either one of the players on either of our lists to have less than a point per game over his career. So, if you’re going to fault Ovechkin for being low on that list, you need to do the same with Richard. He’s an all-time great, but the Rocket Richard Trophy is only named after him because he happened to be one of the greats in the early NHL.